ect.org Position Statement
The position of ect.org is very straightforward and, I think, quite clear. Yet it is constantly distorted by the media and by those who use such distortion to further their political agendas.
I’ll put it in bullet form to make it e-a-s-y to read. Now there’s no excuse for distortion, unless you’re just a liar.
Since ect.org is a one-(wo)man show (with a lot of help from my friends!), I’m going to use first person because it’s less cumbersome.
* While critical of ECT, the ECT industry, and contemporary practice, I do not seek to ban ECT. I do, however, respect the views and activities of those who pursue that path. I’m a pragmatist, not an idealist.
* I have no desire to stop any individual from having ECT. It’s a personal choice and not my desire to interfere. I believe in self determination and free choice, and that extends to ECT.
* I am not antipscyhiatry, though many of my friends are. Many are not. I do not believe all psychiatrists are bad, though when they’re bad, they’re really, really bad because of the power they possess.
* I am absolutely, 100 percent against forced ECT. There is no excuse for using such an invasive and unreliable treatment against anyone’s will.
* I believe in informed consent, and with a few exceptions, that does not occur when one is considering the ECT option.
* The purpose of this website is to provide as much information as possible. What you do with that is your business.
* I am not a Scientologist, this website is not affiliated with Scientology in any way, despite the inaccurate writings of some lazy authors.
* Officially, if you don’t like this website…my advice is use your mouse and click on outta here.
In summary for the reading challenged (that might include: LAZY historians who worked at Greenville (Illinois) College, social science professors from the sunflower state, my old friends Harry, Ricky….and Dan Rather - who broke my heart - and friends):
I’m not a Scientologist, I’m not trying to stop anyone’s ECT, and I’m against all forced ECT. That’s it in a nutshell. Got it?
Last Updated: Mar 21, 2007 | Email This Page | Print This Page
I would like to know if the Mayo Clinic has reported on their experience with ECT. Thank you. Bob Richardson
Yes they have, and I’ve got some stuff from Mayo, but it’s not up yet, at least on this part of the site. Not sure how you wandered in (LOL), but this area is being built now, so hasn’t gone live. But…welcome anyway. You’ll find a lot of stuff missing, and test posts and gobbeldy goop.
If you want to go to the main site, go to http://www.ect.org/index.shtml and go from there…that’s the older version, but there’s a lot more info through that door. Probably some Mayo stuff if you search Mayo.
Off the top of my head I recall that Mayo did a satisfaction study a few years back, and it had some real problems. They had a number of individuals who dropped out of the study, but they gave no explanation.
Linda Andre, who runs CTIP, has talked with some participants of some other studies who were dropped, and the reasons weren’t satisfactory. (Apparently they weren’t responding well to the ECT, so got dropped…that skews the numbers heavily when they do that kind of thing, and my suspicions are the Mayo study had similar problems, but put a spin on it.)
Juli
Hi Juli,
Depression has taken hold of my husband who needed to be admitted to hospital Thursday. I was amazed Saturday (today) to ask about his treatment plan and learn that my husband had consented to ECT.
It alarms me to think that some psychiatrist could speak briefly to my husband, who lost some rational thought obviously - entertaining a way to take his own life, not consult with any family member for a reality check of behavior and circumstances, AND THEN deem the patient a knowledgeable and willing participant.
Hopefully, the call into his internist will disrupt this course of action and pave the way for other treatment plans to be implemented.
I look forward to reading more of your information.
Thank you, Jan NVJan@hotmail.com
Thanks for your kind comments, Jan.
It’s always been the biggest of paradoxes that if a person consents to ECT, then they’re deemed competent. But the minute they refuse, the competence flies away and they’re judged incompetent so that a psychiatrist can impose his/her will.
Every time I think of the situation (which is a lot more common than I’d like to admit), I think of Alanis Morrisette’s song “Ironic.”
I wish you and your husband the best.
Juli
To both Jan and Juli,
I look forward to reading more on your website and perhaps joining your cause. My mother also signed a consent for ECT when she was hospitalized for profound depression-which was directly caused by the overdose of the medication she was taking. Her drug level was still high enough to stone an elephant when she signed the consent, never legally allowable when I was a nurse assisting with surgical consents. Let me add that the impetus for this was, without a doubt, pressure from the insurance plan to discharge her due to few remaining psych care days on her plan. My mother was living independently with her disease in her late 50’s at the time. She left with a severe and permanent seizure disorder, dependent on assisted care, with increasing loss of function with each seizure episode, with no personal nor family history of epilepsy. At this time we are waiting to see if she will “wake up” from her most recent episode, at a physically young 64 she is likely brain dead. As an RN I am appalled that anyone could pretend that this was informed consent, and will use her story as I can to promote the misuse and abuse of this therapy by renowned medical systems.
Thanks,
Deb
Toby’s foul comment has been moved
I don’t know how can i fight against this curst named schizofrenia.All what i need to say is i got ect 134 times in 9 years.Pain of Jesus is nothing ,that is Ect. If i will got one more i will kill my self.
Hi , I am a 52 year old woman looking for any information on the kind of equipment used for ECT back in 1953, My mother recieved 6 treatments in her third trimester with me and I have had difficuties since birth. If you can forward any info please do. thank you ,Ave
My father in-law just finished his ECT treatment, he had severe depression and psycosis for over a year, after the ECT he has returned to being what he was, funny, sweet, almost like he was before the breakdown, he’s not 100% “cured” but he’s getting there, he has some side effects but, he’s know leading his normal life. Why do you speak so about ECT when in a lot of cases it really works?
I was in the “Anti-Psychiatry” movement for YEARS and now am just TRYING to deal with my Schizoaffective. I have been on meds since 15 yrs old and as of 4 months ago was taking up to 27 pills a day. Zyprexa gave me Diabetes and I am obese and tired of living.
It took me 4 months to go off my meds and I am now considered non-compliant and only take an occassional “anti-anxiety” med.
I do NOT respond well to SSRI’s and antidepressants — they just don’t work for me. I DON”T want to take pills — I am tired of it
I feel as though my life is coming to an end.
I am considering ECT.
I do not know where to turn or what to do.
Thanks for your time.
Please give me any suggestions you can.
Thank You
–S. Noble
Hello S.Noble, since you are not on meds, have you considered acupuncture or even herbs (from an herbologist)? There are many herbs that one can take and get help, but if you just don’t want to take pills anymore…
From what I am reading it sounds like one might need to check this thing out a lot more before succombing to ECT.
I have actually seen someone get ECT and it was horrific, but the nurses that work with the patients says it is very helpful… s
Sounds like a toss up to me.
nursing student
Deb,
I specifically asked my sisters doctors if there was a possibility of developing a permanent seizure disorder and was told no. The doctors admit they don’t understand how/why ECT works. My question is then how can you tell me there are no adverse affects other than temporary short term memory loss.
After seeing both my Dad and ex-husband go through ECT with no success, I tried to persuade a friend’s husband not to let her do it.
He did not listen, nor did she, and after 15 treatments she was much worse. It’s just sad.
I have seen ECT done in my nursing school clinical rotation. Perhaps my experience is unique, but the nurse asked the patient 3-4 times prior to this day’s treatment, did she have any questions or reservations? Was it still OK with her to continue? This happened right up until she recieved the anesthesia.
It really seemed to me that INFORMED CONSENT was the highst priority.
Is this outside the norm?
Thanks for the input.
Most hospitals do require extensive informed consent process before ECT, I have read through the one at University of Washington and it certainly is. But in reality, my mother’s hospital had her sign a consent form when she had a documented Depakote level HUGELY above therapeutic-she could not even lift a pen. When they attempted to repeat ECT several years later they claimed she was cleared by ortho and neuro for her broken arm. AFTER I resisted and asked for a conference, they sent her home in a cab unable to walk with a message that the physician could do nothing for her “since family refused ECT”. They are very lucky this happened, since her PCP found later her arm was never set properly, required surgery to break and reset, and would have had permanent nerve damage if ECT had been done. The “clearance” by orth was over the phone. In both instances this same institution is not following the basic standard of care for this procedure and they would be found negligent in a court of law. What I am fearful of is that institions and practioners know that many older women do not have advocates for their care, they have complex medical and psych issues that may often cloud lawsuits, and so practioners get lax in their process and obey insurance dictations above all else, feeling that the lawsuits will be rare and easy to fight. I believe our medical system, especially our psychiatric care, is shamefully below that of third world countries, and am a nurse myself so speak from family and work experience.
WHY ARE SOME PARTS OF THE COMMENTS AND MAIL MISSING,,ARE THESE MESSAGES BEING EDITED?? jUST WONDERED IN HERE..AND I HAVE SOME QUESTIONS..MORE THAN PERSONAL INFO MISSING…IF SOMEONES WRITES A RESPONSE WE SHOULE BE ABLE TO READ IT. I AM FINDING WHOLE SENTENCES MISSING HARD TO GET AN IDEA UNDERSTANDING YOUR STANCE
Hi Julie,
No, posts aren’t edited unless someone asks me to correct a typo for them. I don’t know how hard it is to go in and edit your own comment - haven’t tried it. So any sentences missing were either never there or later edited by the original poster.
As it says in the comment box below, email addresses are not published when you fill in the form. If you put your email address in the body of the post, then it’s published, but it isn’t wise. This is to prevent spam robots from harvesting your email address and sending spam to your email address, and to prevent harassers from sending you unwanted email. Sometimes you will see a link to a person’s name, and that’s because they’ve entered their web address, so the link is to their website.
Juli
I am to be released from the hospital tomorrow and am back on meds… don’t know if this is bad or good… still having problems, but not suicidal or WANTING ECT although still “Considering” it, although sometimes after reading peoples Posts, I don’t have any idea why I would ever consider it.
Thank you to everyone for their concern.
I would like to hear anyone’s suggestions,
I am very, very nervous and still depressed and having some problems.
Thank You
well, …![]()
what else is there? i’ve been on every anti-depressant, narcotics (side -effect-euphoria) NOTHING works. i still do not want to live. i’m sick of taking drugs. the only thing keeping me alive is my 17 year old and my faith. i typed in ect and this was the first thing i clicked on. i’m desperate. i had every intention of doing this. i also worked in recovery ( at a tenet hospital) and ect was being performed all the time and they were the easiest pt’s to take care of. it was like no big deal. now, i read this stuff. i have to do something. can’t keep living like this
Sara I think if you want to try it you should. I had it a few months ago and it didn’t work at all. Now I’m learning that for the toughest cases it’s not highly effective and if your case isn’t tough then the meds will work. I’m seeing a new psychiatrist who used to give it but gave it up because he says he didn’t think it worked very well. But loosing your memory is worth it if it gets rid of this horrible depression. My memory is like cheese now. This new doctor is trying other drugs the first doctor didn’t try. There are so many. I wish it worked because it’s a lot faster than waiting on meds and your asleep so it’s not like you feel it.
I. If they’re the easiest patients to take care of, think about why. Shock has made them docile. Why else would it have been used by the CIA on terrorists and by those doctors who used it to “reprogram” disobedient wives in the US and Canada? (I’m not paranoid or into conspiracy theories - there have been documentaries on this. Some are around this site, I’ve seen them but don’t remember where! NOT MADE UP!!!)
II. If you worked in the psych ward at a hospital and saw shock performed, then why are you cruising around here? Either you’re full of it and just trying to cause trouble or you know deep in your heart there’s something wrong with shock and you’re searching the net. Why are you searching the net for shock info if you’ve worked around it? You either believe in it because you see depressed patients turn into compliant, smiling people or you’re against it because you’ve seen depressed patients turn into compliant zombies.
III. Since you work at a psych ward, why not just ask the doctors there for information about shock?
There’s something that just doesn’t ring true about your post Sarah. Whatever.
Tim
dear tim,
i said i worked in recovery, not psych. i have no psych experience. this a.m., i was on the brink of what we aren’t supposed to mention here. i thought about what i had seen in recovery )which i worked briefly….i am ER by spec.) i found this site when i typed in ect. i am also a christian, so by faith i should not even be contemplating what i was. thanks for the encouragement. and by the way, since you were so concerned as to write to me, i did call a neurosurgeon i know, but he hasn’t called me back yet. i stil don’t have all i need to make an informed consent and tim, don’t bother writing to me again.
dear mariceil, thanks for the info. i think i would be better off not remenbering what happenned in the last 5 years. it might just be a blessing. but what about recovery time like when can i go back to work? i’m a nurse, will i remember how to do my job? what kind of stuff do you forget and more importantly, what do you remember? are you more disposed to remember traumatic events?
My daughter, 13, has been depressed nearly all of 2006. In April she convinced herself she had an eating disorder, then just before school started she started cutting her wrists (self injury victim) - which she did perhaps 3 times with permenant looking scars. She has had 4 hospital admissions, now for suicidal ideation. Besides mondo drugs (depakot 1500mg per day, Seroquel 100, Lexapro and Lamectal) now they want to perform ECT. She is a very bright student and I’m worried about a) won’t work, b) brain damage. I think that basically, she’s a troubled kid that’s having a lot of trouble growing up! Where can I find a resource that will care for her and bring her back into normal life without the mondo psychiatry / ECT? Is there a resource list / link? She IS too sick to come home right now, she may indeed try to “do it”. Thanks,
Anyone who has had SEVERE medication resistant depression can understand the frustration and desolation of the the disease. When the thought of another day brings a feeling of being totally overwhelmed, one must consider risk vs possible benefit of ECT. I had 12 treatments and it worked to make be functional again (by that I mean, I can get out of bed and face the day). The side effect: my memory is like swiss cheese with that last 2 yrs effectively erased (including all of the negative emotions that accompanied them). In my estimation, that’s how it works: it dumps memory (good and bad alike). And since most depressed people are carrying around “suitcases” of negative emotions, ECT works to lighten the load (personal opinion only). Am I cured of depression? No. Am I treatable with meds now? Yes. However, to be fair, the meds I’m on now are NOT the same as the myriad tried before the ECT. So which is it? I don’t know, but if life becomes unliveable, then reach for whatever therapy may help. My personal goal, is to delete the stigma of ECT and to let rational people realize that it is a treatment option, and nothing more.
HI,
My partner is considering ect after 14 years of profound struggle with Bipolar disorder. It seems like the last resort but I am fearful of the side effects and cognitive disfunction associated with it.
What do you know about it effect on bipolar patients.
What are some of the other cognitive disfunction, besides amnesia?
Thankyou.
After seeing my Dr.for the past 3years and having only temporary (a couple of weeks)of Mania relief he asked me to consider having ECT.
However, he had my husband come in to explain that he nor any MD can tell us how it helps. He told me this is to be used as a last resort. I have been on so anti-depressants I have lost my memory already.I just want my life back.
I would like to know the recovery time after the procedure from some of you that have had it.
Thanks for any info available.
My family is prone to mood disorders and mental illness. Two of my children have been diagnosed with bipolar 1, which means the manias have psychotic features. I witnessed a miraculous recovery of my oldest girl after the first ect, she became completely lucid after months of confusion. However, the shrinks signed her up for ten or more treatments which I believe were excessive, and now she has struggled with years of memory loss and anger related to that, and cognitive impairment that has made the resumption of her college career a struggle, in particular the writing skill, grammar and spelling, and learning a foreign language were most challenging. My youngest child has developed a pattern of manic episodes relating to adolescent crushes (they don’t call it “crazy about” someone for nothing!) which involve mood spikes and sleeplessness which have necessitated hospitalization. Now I am facing the dilemma, as my kid’s illness is progressive and does not respond to medication, to let the state lock her up far away (there are no closer adolescent facilities) and long term, or try ect. I have said try ect, and this week the doctors are going to try to arrange it, but between my lingering doubts about the excess of treatment which seems to be the norm, and the negative testimony I have read here, I am thinking again, and hopefully not too late!
J
In 2004 I had 9 rounds of ECT. In 2001 my female cousin overdosed on exstacy and was unresponsive. Seeing my beautiful 18 year old cousin in a diaper laying in a bed was heart wrenching. My aunt consented to ECT. In 2003 I went to Parris Island and watched her graduate from Marine Basic training. She served a full 4 years in the Marine Corps. After long a battle with finding the right meds for Bipolar Disorder, I decided on ECT. I gave up at 9 treatments as I felt it wasnt working. However, years later I look back and feel as if these treatments made a big impact on my life. I now know that these treatments did work. People in my life has noticed a dramatic change in me. I too have relized that maybe ECT has saved my life. I do have some memory loss, but that is the only side effect I have noticed. Not remembering a movie I saw seems to be a good trade off for the bouts of mania. I made the decision soley myself to have ECT. I am against the use of ECT on anyone who can not make an informed decision or as a form of punishment.
I have had over 157 ECT (Electroshock) treatments over the past four years. I feel like this many treatments along with all the medications were excessive and have ruined my life. The cost and time has been a tremendous stress on my entire family. I feel like my doctors excessive use of this treatment was not in my best interest. I feel I have suffered severely as a result. Mentally I have lost most all of my long term memories and have difficulties with any short term memory. Physically I suffer from severe headaches regularly, my hands shake badly and my legs hurt. I should clarify that I was diagnosed as bi-polar which I still take medications for.
My issue is not so much that I was initially treated with the ECT but that I was given so many treatments while still receiving so many medications. I think if all the records were checked, I was probably given more than 200 of these treatments all together. Everyone I have spoken with, as in other doctors and nurses, have said that they had never heard of anyone getting this many treatments. As I have researched on line I have found that I am a rare exception. Actually I haven’t found anyone who has had as many as I had. I also question why the treatments were not slowed down earlier to see if I was making progress as opposed to the three a week I was receiving for the longest time. Also while researching on line I found that I suffer from most all potential side effects that were listed. I insisted on quitting these treatments last June 2006.
I feel my doctor was careless, reckless and negligent in his excessive use of this ECT treatment on me. I question that his motives may have been monetary and self serving.
I have felt so much better since stopping ECT. I have some bad effects from this but overall great. I would Never suggest this (ECT) to anyone!!!
This “mystique” surrounding ECT is fascinating. In the midst of my training as a psychiatrist, searching for some articles, I came across this website.
At my hospital, ECT is performed every day. I thought I would post a few observations on the Position Statement.
“Forced” anything is a truly rare thing in medicine these days. Patients are “forced” into restraints, or to take meds, only when there is a clear danger. Mainly, this involves violence. But the thing to keep in mind is that no health care provider in a hospital works alone. To force meds, for example, somebody would have to hold the patient down, and somebody else would have to administer the meds. Now, two people are involved in the situation. If wrong, both would have to agree to do it, and to keep it quiet.
Likewise, in ECT. Modern ECT is performed in a day surgery facility. A nurse, an anesthesiologist, and a psychiatrist are all involved. All of these people require considerable years of training, and then significant licensing to be allowed to do this.
Perhaps I, the psychiatrist, as Tom Cruise would have it, am nuts, and am prone to “forcing” futile, punitive procedures ECT on patients. That’s fine. However, I still need to convince the anesthesiologist to collaborate. Why would he do something totally fruitless and potentially harmful? There is no need for him to risk his medical license like that. He has more than enough work anesthetizing surgical patients.
So, it’s not quite that simple. If one looks on Pub Med, there’s quite a bit of research on the efficacy of ECT. But, there are side effects, yes. Also, we don’t know how it works, exactly. Yet, the AMA, APA, and other major medical organizations (who are very lawsuit fearful) support it.
No, lots of support is not an argument for or against it, I agree. But side effects and an unknown mechanism also do not make it invalid or “evil.”
Family doctors treat high blood pressure every day. We think nothing of it. And a great deal of the cases of high blood pressure fall into the category called “essential” hypertension. What is essential? Well, that’s the medical term for “we don’t know what causes it.” Blood pressure medications have all sorts of side effects. Indeed, all medications do. One of the side effects of any surgical procedure is death. Tylenol will easily kill your liver. Yet patients routinely take it, and ignore warnings not to take too much.
ECT is simply a medical procedure. Suitable for some, not suitable for others. Sometimes ECT works. Sometimes it works amazingly well. Sometimes it doesn’t work at all or, worse, causes side effect that are, for that particular patient, horrible.
And I agree, there are bad doctors, and bad psychiatrists out there.
But, for the most part, I think that the average psychiatrist you run into is simply a doctor trying his human best to help patients in any way he knows how. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t. When a patient is so depressed that they commit suicide you, the doctor, have to live with that fact. And, you have to also live with yourself, knowing that you did your best to try to prevent it.
And, that, “first, you did no harm.”
WOW - Lots of differeing opinions. I’m in the middle somewhere. I had ECT 1x a week for about 8-10 treatments…treatment #7 was the magic one - I came out of that deep deep hole..I took the treetments as an outpatient and have been recommending them. Since I myself thought I had no side effects..my memory was fine I thought. Right now tho I have realized (by Blatantly failing these tests) that I am having very big cognitive problems with memory retention, organisation,spelling and vocabulary recall, and some other things I forget. I am awaiting the results of a NeuroPsych Report..I am also having problems with my hands and arms - coordination and weakness..I can’t remember if This started before or after. I am scared stiff as I am a single self supporting female and don’t know what I will do if these symptoms don’t go away !!I have been in denial of all this for months and months and have isolated and ignored it all. I ended up in the Psych Ward for the last 2 months (first time I ever had to go there)just overwhelmed with the stress of being unable to deal with all this…anyway..that’s my experience so far..I don’t know if it is related to ECT or if there is some other diagnosis going to come out of the woods..I’ll try to remember to keep you posted lol
Hi All,
Great site, lots of sad stories. I am a Psychotherapist in the UK, I oppose ECT 100%. 90% of Depression lifts naturally by about 9 months on average anyway, as the research shows. Often people feel a bit better and just want to get home, away from the ward, this probably explains most of the ’success’ ECT allegedly has had.
People become mentally ill whwn things go wrong for them, often over a long period of time, stress builds and eventually can overload a person’s mind…break down or depression results. You don’t need to be a rocket scientist to work that out. ECT is balloney! A person needs support and help getting their life back on track, needs met and stress reduced in their life…then the symptoms tend to drop away.
Best wishes, J
I wanted to respond to Dr. b’s assertion that forced ECT doesn’t happen. Maybe you’re under the impression that if a court orders it against a person’s will, it’s not force?
The idea that patients are going to go kicking and screaming into the ECT suite is nonsense. You know full well that chemical restraints are very effective. If a patient is being forcibly shocked and trying to fight, they’re given some Haldol or a sedative to calm them down.
I’ve been involved in too many cases involving force to know that you’re just wrong. Maybe *you* don’t force anyone - and certainly not every ECT doc would - but some do. Since nobody really gives a damn about shock patients, forced ECT isn’t something that is studied on a nationwide basis.
Not all of those are forced, of course, but there’s no real way to know which patients go along with it, and which don’t. More common is coercion, where the patient says no and the doctor says then I’ll take you to court. The patient knows s/he’ll lose, likely has no support system, and consents legally, but only because there is really no choice but to submit.
And in the cases where the person DOES have a support system (family/friends), they try to fight. I don’t know of a case yet where a doctor has taken a patient to court to force ECT and the patient has prevailed. What stopped the ECT in cases was outcry in the media and shame against the doctor and hospital in charge.
Rule of thumb: a psychiatrist always trumps a patient and the patient’s family/friends in a court of law. That’s just how judges see it, and until judges get on the clue train, not much is going to change.
In two cases I was heavily involved in, the judges ordered the forced ECT against the objections of the family, as well as the patient. One patient was near 90 years of age, had Alzheimer’s and thus was incompetent. But the doctor told the judge the ECT would CURE the woman’s Alzheimer’s. The judge just bought this (psychiatrist’s word trumps common sense) and said okay. Shock her. (This was a woman in a nursing home.) The daughter who fought was an RN.
Now before you say this is a rogue doctor, I should mention that he’s highly regarded, well published, and trained under Max Fink at Stonybrook.
In the other case, the woman was admitted to the hospital for bogus reasons (read Kathleen Garrett’s story for more details) and heavily sedated the morning she went to court. She had only a couple of days to scramble and get an attorney. No time to find anyone to testify on her behalf. She was so sedated they had to wheel her in on a gurney. The court transcripts are on the site. She lost, despite her objections, despite having an attorney (who had no experience in mental health…such attorneys are hard to find), and despite the strong objections of her son, who pleaded with the court. The son was a licensed social worker for the city of St. Louis.
And interestingly, she was competent until the moment she said No to ECT. Then she became incompetent with the stroke of a pen.
Going from competent to incompetent at Mach speed happens more than you’d think.
I also might point out that I haven’t called ECT evil. But forced ECT is.
You may not have witnessed forced ECT in your hospital, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
My grandmother told me, when I was a teenager, that incest and child molestation did not exist. She also said the same thing about homosexuality. Said it was all made up, because SHE had never seen it, never knew anyone who’d been molested (or at least told her about it), never knew a gay person.
Turns out she was wrong. You’re wrong too, but I suspect you’ve got more living and training to do before the rose-colored glasses come off.
Most liberals think they need to force their ideas of “help” on those they consider the less fortunate. This clown of a doctor is of that ilk, almost certainly a red diaper doper baby. Liberalism is the real mental disorder, because it just wants the state to take care of everyone, whether they want it or not.
But of course the rules don’t apply to those at the top, the idiots that make the rules. Just look at Fat Al (Gore), who preaches the rest of us need to change our lifestyles and change our energy ways. This from a man who spends thirty grand on one electric bill and flies around in his private jet.
I have had clinical depression since I was in my early twenties. I’ve been on medications since the early 80’s. My recent bout was/is extremely severe and required hospitalization. While there I was apparently talked into getting ECT. Of course I have no memory of that conversation now, because the ECT has effectively destroyed that. My husband was never brought in on this decision, and considering I was being hospitalized for the severity of my illness I cannot understand how the hospital deemed MY consent to be informed, or made while of *sound mind*. It’s just idiotic, and really a pretty underhanded thing to do to someone in that condition.
Now that I’m a couple months post ECT, I find myself not only still depressed but now angry from the damage ECT as done to me. Depression alters the brain quite enough in its own right, but that’s nothing compared to the damage left in the wake of 11 ECT treatments. I was supposed to have 12 but fortunately managed to finally speak up for myself in my fog, and call a halt to it.
I’m groping around each day trying to pick up the pieces of a shattered life, while still coping with severe depression. I’m told it will abate, eventually, on its own regardless of choice of treatment. And I hold on it that. But I wonder how long the damaging side effects of ECT will continue to plague me. Will I ever be able to rebuild my brain? It’s a struggle that didn’t have to happen.
If I knew then what I know now, I never would have consented, that’s for sure.
I had 5 ECT treatments-3 in 2005 and 2 in 2006 during hospitalization for severe depression and being extremely suicidal; I am diagnosed with Bipolar 2. My therapist thought is was the last resort due to my resistance to drug therapy. If I had it to do again, I would never have done it. My long term memory is fine, but my short term memory is gone. I also have periods of confusion and emotional numbness, not to mention continued depression. The only thing it might have done was to relieve the suicidal impulses. It has interfered with my job. I work, but with great difficulty. My job is very detailed oriented. Being that I am cognitively slower it is difficult to do all that is expected.
Hello;
I am not taking ECT, however my wife is, it is the lateral, opposed to the bilateral, and she has had five treatments. She was diagnosed 8 days after taking attempting to take her life by overdosing, as being clinically depressed. I never saw it coming, one moment she is showing me pictures of our children, and the next she is screaming “OH MY GOD” and then passed out. I raced her to the hospital thinking she was having a heart attack, only to discover 6 hours later when I found a suicide note, what she had done. I had a doctor stand in front of me and tell me when I asked him, will she do this again. He said the following ” This is a one time event, treated with medication it will never happen again”. That was 8 days after her attempt, 4 days after she came out of her Coma. As a result of that attempt, she has a brain injury, in that she suffers from short term memory loss. So for 14 months she followed a regiment of drug theraphy, counselling. Counselling didn’t work, because she couldn’t recall what was said to her the following day, and would remember sipits of info. 14 months she was placed on Efexor, going from 75 mg to 225 mg’s. To no effect, and then as before, she decided to take every medication in the house and try all over again. She was placed in a hospital (Acute mental care ward), and given different drugs, counselling, placed in a lock down ward, surrounded by all different types of mental illness, forced to sleep in a strange bed, forced to talk to people see wouldn’t remember the next day, forced to suffer alone behind a curtain, burying her deeper and deeper into her depression. We never heard of ECT until two weeks after her stay. She heard what they said, explained about the possibility of long term, and short term memory loss, we are aware of the risks. She is scheduled for 12, she has had five so far, with no effect. SHe sleeps in her own bed at the moment, but she goes to the clinic daily, and receives three treatments weekly. I don’t know if it is going to work, and I am not a religious man, but I have been praying. She is also on another drug theraphy as she is taking the ECT. I have read your stories, and I feel such emphathy to you all. But what is there, which is going to stop the one you love more then life itself, from ending her life. I can live with a wife who forgets how to spell, can’t retain a word, but how bleak my life would be if she wasn’t in it. So now I wait to see if the ECT will give her the strength to move on to happier health. If it doesn’t, then we will try something else. As I wait for my wife to slip just one more time, I pray that I am there to catch her if she should fall
Dear Don,
My heart breaks for what you and your wife are going through. I do hope and pray she finds relief soon. It’s been a little over a month since I posted my comment here on ECT. Since then I have had a breakthrough in my treatment. Working with my Dr. we decided to try Wellbutrin again. (I’d been successfully treated with it a few years back but had gone off it because I was having a problem with ringing in my ears)–Within two weeks of starting Wellbutrin I was up to a therapeutic dose and started coming out of the depression fairly quickly. I would say even, within days I felt 100% better. I don’t credit the ECT with doing this because it had been almost two months and I still felt as depressed as before. But the Wellbutrin, for me, definitely caused me to turn the corner. Different drugs work for different people.
I don’t know what age your wife is, but I’m also going through menopause and I recently started Hormone Replacement Therapy and I think that’s had a very positive effect as well.
I will be interested to hear of her progress with ECT and if it helps. Also I don’t understand why Dr.s prescribe unilateral ECT sometimes and Bilateral others. I thought it was all Bilateral.
Anyway, my hopes and prayers are with you.
Marstokyo;
Thank you for your support and kind words. My wife is presently on WellButrin as part of her recovery, she has only been on it for a week, so we, or I am not seeing any signs of her depression lifting. She is 42 years old, not quite hitting the menopause phase of life. It is difficult for me at the moment, trying to come to terms with everything that she is going through. I understand it is a mental illness, but it is not something that is going to lift in a couple of months, as there is a lifetime of work ahead of us. The Dr opted to perform a lateral, based on the fact that it is less likely to cause short or long term memory loss. In truth, my wife hasn’t complained about any memory issues to date, however she is still very depressed, which is why she attend the clinic daily. I try to be the best I can be for her at the moment, but it is getting difficult, especially when she speaks so ill of herself, guilt and shame, which I understand is a part of her depression. I hope that as each day goes by, I will see the glimmer of joy in my wifes eyes, instead of the sadness, and look of confusion which she presents each day. I am happy you are feeling better as a result of the Wellbutrin, and I hope that my wife will be able to write the same on this website one day.
Don,
“but it is getting difficult, especially when she speaks so ill of herself, guilt and shame”
I know it must be so hard for loved ones. Being the one with the illness, I can tell you that the worst aspect of major depression is the self-loathing. It’s really so powerful and so consuming, and it is THAT that continues to fuel the depression and can eventually drive you to want to end it. I’m convinced it is a chemical problem in the brain–especially by what I’ve just experienced in the last couple years of my life. Yes–this bout of major depression started coming on over a year ago–we struggled with trying to find the right combination of meds, but nothing worked. Things reached the suicidal point and I went in the hospital and opted for ECT. I realize now, that my memory is coming back, that I consented willingly and had discussed it weeks before with my Dr.
It seemed the only option left.
I had 11 (bilateral) treatments and for two months post ECT I was still depressed (though not suicidal) and very discouraged. As I said, the Wellbutrin proved to be the magic bullet for me.
There IS such a treatment out there for your wife. I truly believe it. I also strongly believe that what she’s experiencing, especially the severity of it and the onset of it is chemically caused and neither of you should feel guilty or shamed or in anyway responsible. It’s the same as if her blood sugar was out of balance and she got diabetes.
Once her brain receptors are functioning properly again, she will heal and be back to her old self (as MIRACULOUS as that may seem, it really DOES happen). So hang in there.
Have the Dr.s considered she may be bi-polar and having a severe episode of the depressive end of the illness. (sometimes mania can be almost none existent) It might be that she needs specific drugs for bi-polar. Keep asking questions. Keep questioning the Dr.s and keep researching.
My opinion on ECT is simply this: Only as a last resort, after all meds and cognitive therapy fail, and if the worst side effect is worth the alternative. My personal experience with depression required my own requests of meds. An SSRI, (paxil), a tricyclic, (doxepin), wellbutrin, and the clear topper to just make me feel GOOD, not just tolerable, Provigil. guys, start reading, and find a dr who truly keeps up. I feel wonderful. And no, I am not loaded. I perform well, sleep well, and love life. To me, it sounds as if ECT may put a barrier to life. My own shrink, btw, has never used it, and considers it barbaric. Hell, he thinks MAOIs are barbaric…..john b rn in tampa fl
I too oppose forced ECT. There is a new, experimental procedure using MRI machines in an invasive manner to cause permanent damage by blasting the brain with pinpoint precision, primarily in the frontal lobes. (This procedure is done after a diagnostic MRI, using the MRI as a ‘map’ for the destructive follow-on procedure.) A sort of electro-magnetic mini-lobotomy, if you will. This procedure is, in my personal opinion, very dangerous and can cause substantial harm. I hope the ethical and legal community looks into it before it becomes established and harms many people. I am not a medical doctor, FYI.
Nursing student.
I watched ECT get performed and there was NOTHING horrific or inhumane about it. They got a muscle relaxer. The treatment lasted 30 seconds. There were no convulsions, but minor twitching in one arm (intentionally), so that the doctors know that the shock was received. If we can shock people’s hearts, why can’t we shock there brains. The theory is the same. Faulty electrical pathways being corrected with a jolt of electricity. I work with Alzheimer’s patients, and I have seen many successful ECT treatments.
I am sorry…see above ..there brains, should be their
Gee, why don’t you try it out yourself then and see how it FEELS? Maybe then you’d understand what we’re talking about. It’s lovely, that as a mere observer, you’ve concluded that there’s nothing horrific or inhuman about it. I bet the Nazi’s were convinced of the same thing when they lovingly slid the Jews into the oven.
Don,
Lateral vs. bilateral - my understanding is that bilateral is more effective for bipolar disorder, although it is more likely to cause memory problems (in most cases short-term). After a hospitalization for an overdose I had ECT and it has given me back my life. I am bipolar (Type II) and have been resistant to every mood stabilizer I have tried. I also cannot take anti-depressants. They make me much worse.
I wish you and your wife the best. Different people start responding after a different number of treatments, so don’t give up hope.
Marstokyo,
How can you even think to compare ECT to what the Nazis did…it helps many people…for people who are resistant to to medication it is very often a last resort.
Sword of Truth,
Not too much truth to your post. People become mentally ill when things go wrong for them??? How does this explain all of the people with problems who are not sick and vice versa? ECT is not baloney…people do not get better from it just because they want to go home (how does this explain outpatients getting better??). When properly used for depression and bipolar disorder it can be quite effective.
B,
Thank you so much for your voice of reason.
A few additional comments about ECT and some of the posts I’ve read here:
The only illnesses I know ECT to be effective for are are depression and bipolar disorder. When ECT was first discovered it was not only overused, it was used for a variety of mental illnesses for which it was not at all effective. And yes, there wasn’t much informed consent. And it was misused in psychiatric hospitals. And it was not performed like it is today with muscle relaxants, etc which sometimes led to broken bones. All of this ended up giving ECT a bad name. And of course there was its negative depiction in “One Flew Over the Coukoo’s Nest”.
I can only speak for myself, but I have responded extrememly well to ECT, from what I understand very quickly. I had memory problems (mostly about long-term stuff, now and then making new memories) for several weeks afterwards. I also suffer from migraines (since my early twenties) and the ECTs gave me migraines. Now, almost two months later it has mostly cleared up. In any case I would gladly trade mild memory problems for the way I feel now!! My migraines are also less frequent and less severe.
One more comment: my doctor discussed ECT thoroughly with my fiance and me. She also suggested we research it. So I made an INFORMED decision. That is what I suggest to other people considering ECT for themselves or family members - do your own research - try www.mayoclinic.com or www.nih.gov to start. Good luck!!
Please, everyone, be skeptical in reading pro-ECT gushings on this website. Although I do not question their sincerity, I do believe that some people are encouraged to post pro-ECT messages. There are thousands of ECT testimonials publicly available on the net, and most of the ones I have seen are negative on ECT. That’s most of the people who’ve had it and written about it…
I have more information on the MRI-related procedure about which I posted earlier. After an exploratory MRI, the patient is put in the same machine, but a focused ultrasound kit has been swapped into the machine (in much the same way that various coils are swapped in and out of MRI machines routinely.) This ultrasound kit (e.g., such as the InSightec kit for GE MRI machines) is used to ablate substantial tissue in the patient’s frontal lobes. The left medial frontal lobe is an ideal target, as it reduces the patient’s motivation, individuality, willpower, concentration, focus, and creativity, rendering the patient less likely to ‘resist’ treatment, which half of all patients on antipsychotics do, most vigorously.
This procedure is based on prior work in brain tumor ablation. The main problems are skull heating and blood-brain barrier heating, but they’ve been worked out. Unfortunately the ‘fix’ to these problems involves substantially spreading out the targeted area of the ultrasound phased array, thereby causing substantial collateral damage to large areas of the frontal lobes, rather than focused damage as in more traditional psychosurgery.
Sincerely,
Jay Chawla, JD, PhD
Jay, I’m a clinical psychologist in a clinic that has both psychiatrists and psychologists. We work together and try to provide a balanced treatment plan. Patients are encouraged to utilize services of both psychiatry and therapy.
One of our staff psychiatrists used ECT quite a bit, so staff like myself heard the “raves and complaints” of the patients who had ECT in the therapy sessions.
The psychiatrist who did have an ECT practice has just retired, and there has been discussion at our clinic concerning whether or not one of the other psychiatrists should take over that aspect of treatment. Still undecided, although I will say that most of the psychiatrists are quietly unenthusiastic about it. In fact only one of them is considering taking over that area of practice. He just said yesterday at a staff meeting that if he doesn’t do it, someone else will and it’s a shame to not take advantage of the money that brings into the clinic. (I’m paraphrasing because I would not want this kind of thing made public.)
I was trying to research ECT a bit more and happened upon this site. I’ve found it interesting, to say the least.
I’ll share a couple of impressions from my own client base, and from discussions between staff: (only my impressions; this obviously is not scientific in any way.)
My overall impression of ECT is based on our clients who have ECT, and who are in talk therapy with me. In general, the success stories are few. The outcomes tend to follow one of two patterns: 1) the ECT just doesn’t work 2) the ECT relieves depression during the course of treatments, but returns fairly quickly and then the patient must resume treatments
Some of the patients then go on to continue ECT treatments on a long-term basis. Those are the success stories, but it’s certainly a trade off of memory and other difficulties versus depression relief. They tend to swap one set of problems for another. Depression is held at arm’s length, ready to return if the ECT is stopped, but now they face severe cognitive difficulties which gets worse over time (there does seem to be a correlation between number of treatments and worsening of cognitive symptoms).
Unfortunately, the doctor who practiced the ECT considered most of these people success stories, because he wasn’t dealing with the aftermath. As the therapist, I had to deal with that, and it often felt like mopping up someone else’s mess.
Jay, I’m not sure that I would agree people are being told to post pro-ECT messages. Who would be encouraging such a thing?
I think more likely people feel an inner need to justify their decision. I see this a lot in my practice. Patients agonize over the initial decision, but once they make it, they feel relief. Their expectations are high and for a time after ECT they are very enthusiastic about the results. As realization settles in that the depression is returning and there may be some ongoing issues with cognition, it’s difficult to accept. Particularly when all of your hopes have been tied to one thing. There’s a real reluctance to acknowledge it.
More importantly, there is often a strong need for validation, to find assurance that they made the right decision. For those who have just gone through treatment and are still in the “honeymoon phase,” there’s an even stronger need to be assured that the recovery is permanent, now they’re “fixed” and can get back to their lives.
Negative comments about ECT rock their boats. I cannot tell you how often I ask a question in therapy about how the ECT has made them feel, and they get overly defensive and explode in anger.
It’s all a long process and I think there are stages the patients go through. I am not a researcher, but it would be an interesting thing to study, these stages of recovery from ECT. There does seem to be a pattern.
This has been interesting reading. I’m glad I found the site and have a lot more reading to do.
Jess
Responding to Jess:
I appreciated reading your thoughtful posting. I would not accuse anyone in particular of manipulating patient reports or of involvement in the new MRI/Ultrasound ‘treatment’ about which I am using this site to educate and warn the public (and I named insightec just as an example of a focused ultrasound manufacturer — I do not mean to imply that that company is involved in any way with this experminental technique, and even if their brand of equipment were hypothetically being used for the procedure, that wouldn’t implicate them either).
Regards,
Jay Chawla, JD, PhD
Regarding Jess’s post…
I have been reading this for about a year now..Since I was doing extra research before taking ECT treatments myself. I will finally post here because reluctantly I have finally seen a post I agree with. I have had cognitive trade offs. Memory, vocabulary, concentration..and here it is getting close to the Depression ’season’ and I am still not completely back ‘up’ to ‘normal’ before winter strikes again. I did end up in the hospital (for the first time) for 2 months after starting the ECT treatments and I only took them 1x week as an out-patient. (fully informed and 2nd opinion and only presented as a last resort since med were just not doing the trick) I do also remember when they finally worked..after the 6th or 7th unilateral treatment. I had no problem while taking the treatments..memory fine. I have had just as much memory and cognitive disturbances from medication..and the depression itself dulls my memory. So I am stuck right in the middle on my opinion. I am still on fairly high doses of SSRI’s and mood stabilizers for BP II .. I tend to rapid cycle and get Very depressed..this past year I was cycling very fast in the same day and having strong suicidal thoughts..I have never attempted, but this scared the pants off me..I really don’t want to go there!! I am thinking tho of taking treatments again this winter if I slide down more than now.(If my Doc agrees.) I have tried all meds there are I think & I just don’t want to go down that road again this winter..Since then tho I have had to stop working and am aiming to stabilize anxiety and stress..once done I may have to re-educate and look for a new career..altho within 15 yrs of retirement..I loved my career, but too stressful.
I do see my Psychiatrist once a week and have other therapy as well - I don’t rely ONLY on meds.
- Janni (Canada)
I don’t know what took me so long to realize it:
My parents were divorced when I was 2. I was raised by my Father and Step Mother. When I was about 7 years old I asked my Father why he divorced my mother and, other than saying they didn’t get along, he offered only “She was sick.” Being the youngest, I said, “If she’s sick, who is taking care of her?” (Clearly, her “family” wasn’t because we were here!)
It was then I vowed to help my mother as soon as I was able. I brought her to California from Pennsylvania in 1989. The journey from that point has been educational, to say the least.
Shortly after her arrival, I learned that she had been hospitalized at Arizona State Hospital in the early-mid ’60’s. That fact enabled us to get approval for her SSI, easier than without. The behavioral issues were complex and ran the gammit, from hygenic to social. Through what appeared to be an acute streak of stubbornness, she proved a tough person to help, yet she was also introspective, funny and fun-loving. I felt it (and still do) my duty to help her as much as I could to lead as high a quality of life as she is able to lead.
When she arrived in 1989, the prescription she was taking, an anti-psychotic drug from an apparent diagnosis of Schizophrenia, was almost out. I had her examined by a psychiatrist in LA who said she is not Schizophrenic, but likely suffered from Depression. He replaced her medication. I shutter at the thought of what affect years of taking anti-psychotics for a condition you do not have will result. But, I had a feeling I was now witnessing it.
I’ll spare the ensuing challenges, because there were many, but there were also many ‘aha’ moments and moments of love and nurturing between us too. I was getting to know my mother and that, in a very real sense, was therapeutic for me.
About 5 years ago, after one hospitalization as a result of diabetes, a doctor called. This particular doctor was a neurosurgeon. He called to inform me that he had studied test of Mom’s brain and told me that he had never seen such a mess, a “quagmire” I think he called it. He wasn’t making a recommendation or anything, he was just informing me of what he saw.
For me, it helped explain why her cognitive abilities were limited and why she was unable to move logically from A to B to C, etc. And, it humbled me knowing that some of her reactions were not out of shear obstinance or lack of respect. It made me more patient, which allowed me to relate better with her.
It wasn’t until she had a severe stroke which landed her in a Nursing Home that I realized other factors in her past may have affected her abilities.
In a recent family consultation, the doctor asked me if Mom had ever been through electro shock therapy (ECT). The question caught me off guard. I do not know for sure, but told him what I did know: that she was hospitalized in Arizona, and of her prior diagnosis (from a mental standpoint) of Schizophrenia and subsequent re-diagnosis of Depression.
It wasn’t until after watching a mystery program which involved a woman who was given electro shock therapy and a lobotomy in the mid -60’s did I remember the Doctor’s statement about my Mom’s brain. It was then that I thought “It very well may be that she was ‘treated’ with ECT and that resulted in this ‘quagmire’ the doctor saw.”
It would explain why she is so resistant to receiving treatment in the nursing home (she refuses everything, even helpful treatments such as movement therapy). As a result, her legs are now completely atrophied and she is unable to move herself in bed. If she lilts to one side, she can only get upright if someone comes and lifts her up and places a pillow there for support. She also resists this gesture of assistance.
Something tells me her experience in Arizona may have something to do with her resistance toward receiving assistance over the years and especially her reaction now. [After all, if everytime someone “helped” me it meant getting another shock treatment (against my will), I would imagine I might react the same way.]
Is there a way I can request the records for my mother from Arizona? It would be very helpful to know for sure if she ever received ECT. It would explain a lot. Right now, it is only a circumstantial assumption that she did.
Thank you.
I have more information on the MRI lobotomy procedure I’ve posted on previously. I am not sure of all details, but here is the best picture available so far:
Ultrasound technology is currently in secret, nonpublic human trials to selectively ablate healthy frontal lobe tissue, including broad areas of both left and right lobes, as well as specifically targeting blood vesssels and functional tissue in the left medial lobe. When blood vessels die, all the cells they feed die. When large blood vessels are damaged, large amounts of brain tissue become permanently compromised, undernourished, and underperforming. That is the intent of this procedure – to make the patient more tractable and easily controlled – more manageable. The procedure, or at least current thinking on it, involves:
1. Doing a standard MRI of the patient to determine such things as skull shape, where the tissue to be ablated is, etc.
2. Putting the patient in the same machine, telling the patient that a ‘follow up study’ is needed for some fictive reason (with a guardian’s permission or some other justification)
3. Using a phased array of acoustic transducers to target in varying levels various parts of the frontal brain. Focused ultrasound superheats tissue, causing cell death.
This phased array is not visible — it’s just swapped into the MRI machine, so the patient has no way of seeing it.
There are problems with this procedure, including
1. difficulty focusing the beam due to irregularities in conduction characterisitics and shape of the skull, etc.
2. the possibility of a secondary hematoma
3. difficulty in controlling the rampant damage, including to major arteries, resulting possibly in a permanent need for vasodilative medication
4. Limited follow up on prior studies investigating damage to rabbit brains — necrosis (cell death), scarring, etc., just after psychosurgery, and at various later stages was not studied sufficiently to fully determine how dire the long-term impact of this procedure will be on humans.
I believe that the procedure is able to avoid skull heating without the use of cooling elements by using a large array that covers most of the skull, and the beam is able to focus in an (approximately) 1-2cm^3 region, and the beam moves around continuously at a rate of 1-3 cm/s. Bursts are not used as in the FDA approved uterine fibroid focused ultrasound procedure for 2 reasons:
1. In the FDA approved uterine procedure, precise ultrasound beam focus is possible since you don’t have to send the ultrasound through highly distorting, poorly modeled skull bone, and tissue ablation can be better controlled by superheating a focused spot. Multiple such bursts can destroy a substantial uterine tumor.
2. This is a lower-power procedure, so it needs to use continuous power focused ultrasound output. Also, the focus is very poor, oddly shaped, and in an unpredictable and only poorly measurable location. Primitive ray-tracing techniques using incomplete skull and other data are used to ‘guess’ at a focal point. (The location of beam focus is used by approximately and not-very-accurately measuring tissue heating with MRI and looking for ‘landmarks’ in brain geography from the preliminary MRI, and the focused ultrasound beam is offset based on such measurements.)
The unsuspecting patients were injected with a clear fluid prior to the procedure, contains microbubbles/ultrasound contrast agent for enhanced tissue destruction. By aiming a weak, poorly focused beam at tissue that has microbubbles in it, the microbubbles cause very extensive, diverse, uncontrollable and uncontainable damage in tissue even at the low power and focus available in this hack, primitive procedure.
The procedure takes some time, including preliminary passes over the left frontal lobe all the way from the temple to the middle of the brain, and the right frontal lobe, out to the medial area. This opens the blood-brain barrier for ultrasound contrast/microbubbles of large particle size to pass through the blood-brain barrier and aggregate in the left medial frontal lobe, which is the true target for destruction.
Unfortunately, in sonicating the blood-brain barrier, extensive collateral damage is caused to the barrier as well as underlying neural, prefrontal tissue. Furthermore, the integrity of the blood-brain barrier is compromised, resulting in possibly permanent hematoma.
The main target is areas in the left medial lobe. A few preliminary passes are done over the area, and the MRI is used to primitively guestimate the approximate temperature and area of heating of tissue in the generalized target area, focusing in particular on arteries (identified from the preliminary MRI) that are to be taken down or damaged. Some spatial offsets are used to guestimated focal points to translate the ultrasound focal point.
In the final pass, after enough time for the microbubbles to pass through the blood brain barrier and circulate to the left medial frontal lobe so they can be ‘detonated’ and haphazardly destroy brain and associated vascular tissue like mini-shrapnel, the final pass is done at a high power level (and even poorer geographic focus on the target area), and the most severe, intended damage from the procedure is done to the unwitting subject.
This procedure is painful, very excruciatingly painful. Terrifyingly painful. However, the patient is medicated with neither their knowledge nor consent, and staff and other confederates trick the patient into thinking the resulting pain is just ‘normal for an MRI’ and that they must be imagining things.
However, the damage is done. And it is terrible damage. The brain burns more calories per gram than any other tissue in the body, and as FMRIs show, it has a very sophisticated method of opening and closing various blood vessels to put the blood where you are ‘thinking’. A major object of this procedure is to make it much harder to ‘think’ in one’s left medial frontal lobe.
I cannot certify to all the details in the above description. But more details will come in time.
Jay Chawla, JD, PhD
Hello All;
When I first wrote on this website, I was seeking information out from someone who could tell about ECT. I am Don, I wrote about my wife, who was undergoing ECT, Lateral. She had 12 ECT’s hated everyone of them, and it was a failure. No change in her depression.
It is as bad as it always was, if not worse. They changed her medication from Efexor, to Welbrutrin. Still no effect. Her physologist wants her back in the hospital to take her off the WelBrutrin, and change to something else. She spent 50 days in a Mental Health Ward, she refuses to go back. I can’t force her, and in Canada, Provincial legislation prevents her being placed in a ward, unless she is at risk to herself or others.
Can someone tell me what can I do, this woman used to be so full of life, now she almosts seems to actually hate living, but does it only on the off chance she can get well. What drug will do the job, more ect’s. MRI’s. Those persons who are pro or con, please tell me, what does one do when the person in their life wants to have no life at all, but is smart enough never to say the word suicide?
Oh Don, I am so sorry to hear this latest. I was really hoping by now your wife could have turned the corner. I was told, when I was at my lowest, that with or without treatment the depression will eventually go away on its own. I’m not sure I believe that but it’s something to hold on to. You both need to somehow hang on the hope of getting better. People do respond differently to different medications and there are a lot of them on the market. For me, the Wellbutrin brought me out. For your wife it may be someting else. If the ECT didn’t work in 12 sessions, I personally wouldn’t continue with it. I stopped at 11, and it didn’t work for me either. I don’t know what to say, except I’m hoping something will work for her soon.
Juli Lawrence, I think I want to give my website to you. I started it as a blog to document my ECT journey, but my brain has turned to mush. Count me as another disaster after a world of promises.
I don’t want the site anymore.
FYI–I am an artist, with lifelong major depression, treated unsuccessfully with ECT (11 treatments) and I’ve been visually documenting my recent ECT experience in a series (in progress) of black on black drawings that can be viewed here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/marstokyo/sets/72157600235406702/
I am recovering, thanks to an effective combination of medications. But I still deal with the ECT damage on a daily basis.
Don,
Having dealt with my mother’s illness for years, I hadn’t put the pieces together until just this week. The effects of anti-psychotics (chemical therapy) and ECT may well have CREATED some of the problems she has had and is having now. And as with my mother, it may not be apparent how many symptoms go away until after your wife’s medication is reduced or eliminated. You know your wife best, and in a better position to decide whether it is worth the chance.
I wonder if you could find a homeopathic doctor in your city who could recommend some remedies that your wife could begin taking to wien her off of meds. If your wife is still able to focus and understand, perhaps some spiritual study could be helpful. I’ve been reading books on the Law of Attraction, the Secret, etc. They have helped illuminate just how strong our thoughts are in creating our reality. How powerful the brain is in curing our bodies.
For example, three years ago January my mother had a severe stroke. The doctor was recommending Hospice, due to the fact her kidneys had failed and she would have to go in for dialisys three times a week for the reast of her life. In tears, I presented Mom with her choices on Wednesday night. Her answer was, “You’re not getting rid of me that easy!” We all broke up with laughter. Her WILL was incredibly strong. Her kidneys began functioning on Thursday. That is the power of mind and will. It may help to make a study of it, since a study of chemical meds has not been fruitful.
My best wishes to you and your wife.
marstokyo, your art is just gorgeous!!!! I need to add that to my links page. I think it says a lot.
Ashley, hold off before you give your website away. You may change your mind later. Right now, if it’s just staying as is, there’s no crime in that. But at renewal time, if you’re going to let it go, I’ll buy it from you so it doesn’t go to the porn people. I also want to add your site to my links….you’ve written some haunting stuff.
Juli
Thank you Juli, for your kind comments. I’m continuing to work on it, and hope at some point ahead to reach the light.
Hi. Hmmm im not sure what i hope to gain from this post. I guess advice? I have suffered from diagnosed depression for 7 years now, although i suffered a long time before that. Id say for at least 16 years now. I have been, and am still, suicidal at times. And have attempted it several times (nearly succeeding to the point of having my heart restarted, not attention seeking attempts). Im only saying this because i want to convey that this is not a depression that will lift in 9 months as the therapist who posted above has described 90% of cases as being. It affects my life to the point where i have become homeless because i cant pay my rent due to losing jobs. It has ruined relationships. Ruined jobs. And i find it hard to deal with the consequences of these things. All i see is all the dreams i had and have, and that nothing will ever be achieved because i dont want to be awake. The only way i can deal with this is to stay asleep as much time as possible. Being awake hurts too much. Currently im taking the max dose of lexapro and 250mg of Seroquel. I guess im asking for suggestions. Ive considered ect for a long time now, but i think it should be a last resort. So….anyone have any ideas? Thank you for your time.
JB
After hearing from a few ladies I knew ECT had been used on them I asked “what is that”? You see I suffer from PTSD steming from numerous rapes while serving in the Army.
Once told what ECT was I almost passed out. When I was a young teen my mother had a nervous breakdown. My sisters and brother went to the mental institutte to visit her. We arrived when they were giving her SHOCK TREATMENT. My father pointed to the window and said “that will happen to you sooner or later” I watched my mother through that tiny window as they gave her shock treatment I was horrified. How could anyone claiming to be human do this to another human being? I will never foget it as long as I live!
I am so totally against this procedure I wish there was something I could do to help.
It is beyond belief our government has allowed our veternas, who have witnessed enough shocking events while fighting for our freedom and that of others, to be given this inhumane treatment. How can they inflict more damage to the body and brain and feel they are doing something good to help those who suffer so badly?
I had electroconvulsive treatment when I was 5 years old. Of course I don’t remember it much, but at the age of 45 my body started to remember. I was suffering from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. One night, I went to bed and my brain started shaking. It freaked me right out! I thought I was going to die. Then, over time, I felt it through my body. I saw doctors and experts and had a brain scan but everything came up normal. I was desperate and started searching for my own answers. The only thing that came up when I searched the internet on brain shakes was EST/ECT. I found a fantastic book “The History of Shock Treatment” edited by Leonard Roy Frank. It is out of print so I got a second hand copy. Once I got the book, everything made sense and I was able to put the peices together. My sister was also getting flashbacks and remembered having it too at age 3. The reason: to make us forget many horrible criminal incidents during our childhood. I believe ECT/EST is a quick fix. I have a memory after ECT being very calm and sweet, “the perfect child” But, we are foolish to think that forgetting is the solution to our problems. The solution to our problems is love and support and truth. My past if part of me. You cannot extract it from me and tell me I’m different. I am my experiences. I suffered from horrible nightmares all my life, and I thought I was crazy. Why didn’t anyone tell me there was a reason for all that. I really believe:”the truth shall set us free” The only problem is… now that my sister and I know the truth, no one will validate us. Our family is split up, my mother will not admit it. Not knowing was crazy making, but knowing and not being aknowledged is crazy making.
There is a positive side to this: once I found out what happened to me, I realize how amazing I am, and how amazing my sister is. We have good jobs, single moms, good people. We survived and thrived, regardless of what they did to us.
hi
I have had many ect. I feel great, they saved my life.
p
Hi
My 25 yr old daughter has had many treatments and they have saved her life also.
Julie,
Great site!
One post above asked about editing and missing sentences. When I view your site I am also seeing missing content.. There seems to a problem with the way the site is loading. I have found that if you highlight the content area, the missing information becomes visible. Just left click and drag over the effected area and the content becomes visible.
I haven’t heard anyone talk about all the side effects of depression/anixity disorder. I was hit w/it hard at the beginning of 2000. All of a sudden w/in minutes I was very weak, blurred vision and could hardly walk. Then began migrains, confussion, mini black outs while awake. I would have a small meal and have dirrarea hit me so fast, the only way I knew it was because I saw it. No warning that it was coming. I tried to work but was back and forth on short term disability. From Dr to Dr. bloodwork showed esptein barr virus. Dr said that meant that I had momo sometime in the past. I went from med to med and ended up on effexor. that helped the most, but the side effects are bad. Back on it after many others, I feel like all the breath is knocked out of me, no engery no motivation. After years recently suffered 3 days over the weekend of strong sudicial thoughts. Never understood this before. Thought if I wanted to kill myself I’d take all my pills and not call anyone. Now I understand it, the brain is telling you Do it! Do it! but you really don’t want to. Now my Dr is suggesting this shock treatment as a last resort. I’ve stay depressed everyday along with the side effects, sleep way too much and don’t care about anything. I got where I went 3 days w/out a bath and my hair looked awful. I was always a expert housekeeper and do the least possible when I can do it. All I do is sit in front of the computer and look at the same stuff over and over again. After what I’ve read I’m scared of shock theray. I use to be pretty shape and an expert speller. Now I fight to remember how to spell and can’t remember anything. I waste everyday of my life. From 2000-almost 2008 and I’ve had all I can take. Once I stopped my med’s cause I was sick to my stomach and for a few days felt great. Then all the symptons kicked back in and death would have felt better. Wellbruton made my mouth so nasty I just couldn’t stand it. I go the the local Mental Health. I worked at the local power co for 5 hrs and thought I’d retire from there. After a year or two I got another job and lost that. Just could’nt make my brain “think” I have brain block all the time. My mom has helped me keep my house and it’s up for sale now. Hope to get into low income apt thats really nice, and my 2nd application for disability is seriously being considered now. I just don’t know how anyone can hold a job with these symptoms and side effects from the meds. I would really love to hear from someone else that has more side effects of depression other than just being depressed. Not taking that lightly, because I have it.
Thanks Sandy
I stumbled on to this discussion while searching for the book on ECT recently published, and on Amazon. I ordered the book so that I can intelligently, I hope, write a review of it.
I had 2, maybe 3, ECT treatments about two years ago now, and feel I am still having some negative cognitive effects. The new book out claims no memory loss, no brain damage, and no long term cognitive effects. Anyone who has had ECT know that this is not true, at least not the memory loss. I understand not everyone has cognitive problems, but I did.
Some could be from other things, it’s hard to discern.
I do not feel I was given full info on my consent. I was in no position to give consent, nor was my family. I signed the day I arrived, watched a tape, and from then on it was assumed that I would be treated. My last memory is of my doc, who I detested as he dragged me out of bed every morning at 7 am to ask me questions, make me remember them, and then
, so horriblle, the last time I saw him, he was holding the strap over my forehead, saying, ” I know you don’t like me much, but you will”, and I was out! I was fortunate to have two nurses in with me, not for ECT, who were waiting for me after each treatment with encouragement.
I was not well received by the staff as I would not go to the discussion groups and sit all morning and all afternoon. I’ve been through enough treatment groups with my family and me that I could not sit still through boring lectures I have heard a zillion times. I hate cog therapy, it is no longer the gold standard. It’s good if you are milding depressed, but severely depressed persons have a very hard time, ‘acting as if’. I got more out of Al Anon. A good group I was in.
I don’t even have the full report from the hospital I was in, just the notes from the two I had, coming out of the second one begging to be shot. I want the rest of my records, and have just been too depressed to stay on task. I checked my self out, my two sons helped me get released. The stay in the psych ward was terrible, mistakes made left and right, including sending my meds home with the wrong patient.
No meds help, most I can’t tolerate, the anti seizure ones being the worst. I’ve tried all at least 3 to 4 times with terrible nausea even at drops. Wish they worked. I’ve been trying meds since 1984. I have a Circadian Rhythm
disorder, moderate bi-polar, and ADD, but my biggest problem finally diagnosed about 6 years ago and recently corroborated thanks to Medicare doing it, is on-going PTSD, and the most help from EMDR, which I will continue when I return home to Minnesota in the spring. It is life changing with a good practitioner.
I have had three psychiatrists finally admit to me that ECT is about like hitting some one over the head with a sledge hammer and hoping it works. It sometimes does. This was admitted to me after much badgering and research on my part, including investigation of the mfrs of the shock machines, (only two I believe) , autopsies on animals shocked at slaughter houses, and other reports.
NAMI is the only org. given to the patient for reference material and there is some very negative info on the internet about them. Discouraging. I was sent in to a hospital by my psychiatrist and therapist and told to say I was suicidal and wanted ECT. I trusted them. It was the only way I could get a bed…. both of those ‘helpers’ abandoned me. I think they just couldn’t help me anymore, and were afraid, but I cannot know what they were thinking.
I should not have listened. I don’t know if I was suicidal… who does? I am not dead yet. Often wish I were as life is so bland and often sad.
I am an artist, love the work by marstokyo, and will write to you on your site… fabulous stuff. More later…. I’m looking for some joy before I die, and I have to stay alive as I have sons. Right now going more natural, Qigong to be tried, cranial sacral for the migraines, maybe other things. I don’t know yet…. also the newer writings on brain plasticity is fabulous. We can change a lot. I wish I had more support as it’s hard to help oneself living alone in a strange town this winter to get the sun. Yes, I have many sunboxes, but they don’t jibe well with migraines.
Can anyone relate to these symptoms?
About seven months ago my mother, who has always been an energetic and healthy woman, became very sick. She was premenopausal and experienced great blood loss and was forced into blood transfusions and a polypectomy. Soon after her bizarre behavior began.
My mom came to visit my brother and I out of state. She did not want to be around any kind of phones, did not want to leave the house and felt as though people were following her when she did.
She has since not returned home and her condition has only worsened. She has been hospitalized three times, for weeks at a time, and tried several different medications. She has been pacing from morning to night for the past 3 months (a side effect from a medication she was injected with). Her feet are in constant pain and her body has withered down to a meager 88 pounds. She refuses to eat anything other than applesauce. She sleeps 3 hours a night, with the aid of sleeping pills and cannot be left alone.
She is currently back in the hospital (her insurace ran out and we are now paying out of pocket) and refuses everything. My brother and I are so discouraged and feel there is no hope other than believing the ect will help. Any similarities or suggestions? Could it be menopausal related?
Continued from above…
My mom was diagnosed with severe depression and paranoid psycosis. Her doctor originally said there was a 5% chance the ECT would not
work, but my brother and I were reluctant. We are worried now that if we continue to let her get worse, we might loose her completely.
I have a new Dr at Mental Health and she turned her chair and talked w/me face to face. Really happy with her. We talked about this procedure and I told her what I had read on this site. She said it was like that years ago, but is very simple and risk free now, and it’s done right in their office. If I had insurance I would do it. I hate being tired and feeling sick and dissoriented everyday. Then on 12/31 at 5am I found myself in EMS on the way to the hospital. I got dizzy and regained and then fell on the floor. So along with depression/anixity/side effect I now have Acute Vertigo. I’m on Dramamine and it makes me sleep. my other meds have the same effect so can you said ZOMBIE! I have to move slow and be careful bending over and moving around. This stinks! My Dad had it so he really did leave me something after all! LOL I hope it goes away, as I have enough to deal with without holding onto walls until the room stops spinning. I wanted to start working out when I have to money, wanted slim n six, but if my head is still swimming I won’t even be able to work out to lose weight. On the upperside of things, someone else always has it worst. Wishing you all the best as fast as possible.
People can do as they like as long as they have the free will and their mind is in tact but since when does anyone have the right to choose for them especially on something involving all that electricty going throught their brain and body? I watched my mother and would never consent to it. And let us go further I have 2 very close friends who went through with it and it not only didn’t help but made things worse. Shirt term memory gone, being able to make decisions shot, tempers flare and they argue yes even fight. There are so many adverse affects to it I can’t even name all of them. Okay one step further people at the hospital who consented well lets leave it at they are a total out and out mess. So if anyone wants to go through minor electricution so be it me well never happen.
I found your site by reading about the old Pilgrim State Hospitals - one where my great-grandmother was placed in the 1950’s - apparently not much has changed in the world of psychiatry - forced treatment in the 50’s was pre-frontal lobotomies, and a variety of forced shocked treatment - ‘the more things change, the more they stay the same’.
So glad you are out there fighting the fight - forced treatment without consent - nothing like tyranny in your own country -
Duane Sherry
http://discoverandrecover.wordpress.com
Has anyone ever heard of an ECT patient losing control over their bladder or bowels? This happened to both me and a friend of mine who had ECT as well. Yet I can’t find anything on these side effects anywhere.
Juli,
You say you do not seek to ban ECT; yet you provide a link to mindfreedom which, based on the little reading I’ve done on the site, seems very blatantly for banning ect - and all psychiatry in general for that matter.
If you are being truthful in your position statement, I don’t believe you would include such a link on your site.
Glenn, there are links all over the site. You haven’t even visited any of the links pages, so how would you know what I link to?
As for Mind Freedom, I suspect you’re just seeing what you want to see. It would not surprise me if you visited a few pages there, too, then used the limited amount of information to reinforce the view you already had.
Mind Freedom is a huge organization, made up of individuals and over ONE HUNDRED other organizations. There’s a wide variety of diverse opinions spread out among the many people. Do you think that every person who belongs to the Democratic party is against the death penalty? Is every Republican anti abortion? Of course not. It’s the same with Mind Freedom members - they run the gamut.
However, even if every member of MF *were* anti ECT and/or anti psychiatry, my placing a link to them doesn’t mean I agree with every word they say. If total agreement were a requirement, this site would be about 1 hundredth its size and wouldn’t contain any link at all.
That’s like me saying “If you visited the Mind Freedom website, then you must be a long haired hippie who smokes a lot of dope.”
Would that be correct? It makes as much sense.
jUST TO LET YOU KNOW. bOTH MY FATHER AND FATHER-IN-LAW WERE HELPED BY ECT. DRUGS DID NOT WORK FOR THEM. THEY WERE CURED FOR YEARS(DEPRESSION AND PSYCHOSIS).ALTHOUGH MY FATHER HAD A COUPLE MORE TREATMENTS LATER.(ONLY A LITTLE SHORT TERM MEMORY LOSS) THANK GOD! IT WORKED GREAT! THEY BOTH CONTINUED TO WORK AND BE PRODUCTIVE. BOTH MEN WERE EXTREMELY INTELLIGENT. BOTH LEAD GREAT,PRODUCTIVE LIVES AFTER THE TREATMENT. IT DEFINATELY WORKED FOR THEM. PERHAPS,LIKE EVERYTHING,ONE SHOULD CHECK OUT WHO IS DOING THE TREATMENT! ANYWAY IT SAVED OUR FAMILY.
I CAN NOT IMAGINE WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED WITHOUT IT,SO DO NOT BE SO FAST TO NOT CONSIDER IT!!!!!!
There are medical researchers being given enormous power by the present administration to use ECT-like techniques on human guinea pigs who have been deemed ’sub-human’ and ‘life unworthy of life’ so as to destroy their ability to think for themselves or exhibit self-agency.
For those looking for alternatives to ect– Try going to www.emofree.com– EFT- Emotional Freedom Technique–is a natural alternative therapy that may be an answer for you– You can find a therapist who is skilled in EFT at this site– It’s a simple technique that can be extremely powerful –EFT often works when nothing else will. Wishing you all lasting health and peace!
Heidi
Hi,
I stumbled on this page while researching for a paper I am writing on the famous poet, Sylvia Plath. I have read her novel, The Bell Jar, twice and it is mostly autobiographic of her own experience with the deterioration she experienced when her depression became extreme. After going through ECT treatments that were administered in the wrong way, she attempts suicide. During her recovery at a facility, she is given ECT by a different doctor, and it is not painful this time because it is done correctly. She recovers after only five treatments. This is the only thing that seems to work for her, although I am not certain as to what medicinal attempts were tried first (She never says, and medical records are confidential of course). For everyone posting who is considering ECT, I just thought I would share what I have found. I also suffer from depression, which is what got me interested in Plath in the first place. I considered ECT myself after reading her novel. I hope this helps anyone, but of course, it must be a personal decision. I just wanted to share a success story to let you know that it is possible.
Thanks
Yeah, worked real well on Sylvia Plath.
SHE KILLED HERSELF. Another success story, like Hemingway.
Basing ECT decision on reading a Sylvia Plath book is like voting for George Bush because Neil Young told you to.
OH MY GOD!
I recently had ECT(7)… I was suicidal before the procedure now I am not. Does it work? Who knows!
It annoys me somewhat that various commentators feel they have some expertise after watching ECT as a student nurse or reading a book. ECT pretty much left me a bumbling fool for 6-7 weeks but gradually things are comming back. I never expected it to be a permanent cure but I was not fully prepared for the memory problems I had. I didn’t recognize people and didn’t know what job I do. Thankfully most of this has gone away althought there are still some problems with my cognitive abilities.
On balance I thing I am better off having had ECT. But it has been at a cost. Without it I feel sure that I would have made some real attempt at suicide and/or would have needed a much longer hospitalization. For what it’s worth thats my view. I do think that if there was equal treatment for psych patients with regard to funding the Dr’s wouldn’t feel under so much pressure to find the “quick fix”. I have a mountain of bills which piled up over just 2 weeks of hospitalization.
Update from January 4, 2008:
I previously wrote about my mom’s severe mental illness and if ect would help her. My brother and I were so afraid to subject her to the treatment, but when she hit 72 pounds and no sign of improvement, we thought it best.
By the 4th treatment, I walked into her room and saw the face of my mom that i knew. She was so happy and asking me so many questions. I cried I was so overwhelmed. It worked.
They continued to do up to 6. The sixth was the most terrifying day of my life. I walked into her hospital room and there was a fowl odor. She was unable to control her bowel movements. I brought her into the bathroom and she did not know how to use the restroom or take a shower. She had forgotten everything.
Within a week, her memory had come back. She was better than she had been in close to a year.
She has since had “maintenance treatments” which continue to work for her. The problem is the results don’t work for long. She is due for another treatment soon, as she is refusing to eat again. I do wish drug treatment could work for her though.